9/11 Terror Suspects on Trial

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Permalink Reply by John Antonelli on November 16, 2009 at 9:38am

I think rudy Guiliani had some good points. To clean it up a bit I would be just as happy if KSM disappeared in some CIA prison after a little water boarding gone bad.

Now KSM will use this as a publicity show for AQ and when after upteen appeals we finally get around to doing the deed to this cock roach well then it will a great day on the suicide bomber callender of the eternal virgins to blow yourself up.

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Permalink Reply by marc on November 16, 2009 at 10:47am

I don't feel that bringing KSM into New York does any good. How can this make sense, tens of thousands of people in New York have been touched in some sort of very personal way. Loosing loved ones, coworkers, and friends. Can anyone in New York be unbiased jury member? I think not. This is a mockery of our justice system. Personally I don't care if he ever goes on trial John Antomelli is right lock him up and through away the key. Don't give him the death penalty because that just makes him a martyr. Just shut him up and lock him away from the rest of the world.

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Permalink Reply by John Antonelli on November 16, 2009 at 10:51am

or tell New Yorkers when and where you will be turning him loose in NYC and then fuggedabout it

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Permalink Reply by ibc on November 16, 2009 at 3:46pm

"I would be just as happy if KSM disappeared in some CIA prison after a little water boarding gone bad."

"This is a mockery of our justice system. Personally I don't care if he ever goes on trial John Antomelli is right lock him up and through away the key."

I'm starting to think that, here at the end of the first decade of the 21th century, there are a lot of my fellow Americans out there who think this country is about nothing more than nice cars, plasma TVs, and ten different flavors of Funions...but there are actually a few non-negotiable bedrock principles.

After World War II was over, do you know what we did with the Nazi leadership? We put them on trial--a public trial. Because we didn't want to legitimize their actions as "military." They were criminals; we tried them for it; and we convicted and executed them. And those guys were actually representatives of a nation-state with which we were at war. We didn't shiver and moan about whether some smart lawyer was going to get them off.

Seems like Americans were a different people back then, though. What is it exactly that scares the right-wing reactionaries about bringing the worst kinds of criminals to justice?

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Permalink Reply by John Antonelli on November 16, 2009 at 4:23pm

ibc different time and different situation. The Nazis were part of a government that was removed from power. To quote former Senator Santorum (talking about homosexuality), its not like man on dog, its a totally different thing.

The Nazis are not going to use the occasion of Hitler's demnise (Praise Allah) to blow themselves up to get 72 virgins. AQ will. Sadly we find some of these fellas with their privates all greased up and wrapped in paper ready for the after life.

ibc said:

"I would be just as happy if KSM disappeared in some CIA prison after a little water boarding gone bad."

"This is a mockery of our justice system. Personally I don't care if he ever goes on trial John Antomelli is right lock him up and through away the key."

I'm starting to think that, here at the end of the first decade of the 21th century, there are a lot of my fellow Americans out there who think this country is about nothing more than nice cars, plasma TVs, and ten different flavors of Funions...but there are actually a few non-negotiable bedrock principles.

After World War II was over, do you know what we did with the Nazi leadership? We put them on trial--a public trial. Because we didn't want to legitimize their actions as "military." They were criminals; we tried them for it; and we convicted and executed them. And those guys were actually representatives of a nation-state with which we were at war. We didn't shiver and moan about whether some smart lawyer was going to get them off.

Seems like Americans were a different people back then, though. What is it exactly that scares the right-wing reactionaries about bringing the worst kinds of criminals to justice?

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Permalink Reply by ibc on November 16, 2009 at 5:12pm

The Nazis were part of a government that was removed from power.

Respectfully, I would point out that you're making an argument in *favor* of prosecuting the Nazis via secret military commissions.

Holding open and fair trials--essentially the best of what the West has to offer--is the best weapon in our arsenal against Islamic extremism. (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/renou...)


We've had nearly a decade of chest-thumping, and it's served us very poorly as a nation.

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Permalink Reply by John Antonelli on November 16, 2009 at 7:53pm

Actually I offer no opinion re the Nazis.

ibc said:

The Nazis were part of a government that was removed from power.

Respectfully, I would point out that you're making an argument in *favor* of prosecuting the Nazis via secret military commissions.

Holding open and fair trials--essentially the best of what the West has to offer--is the best weapon in our arsenal against Islamic extremism. (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/renou...)


We've had nearly a decade of chest-thumping, and it's served us very poorly as a nation.

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Permalink Reply by ibc on November 17, 2009 at 10:23am

John Antonelli said:

Actually I offer no opinion re the Nazis.

Having read several of your previous posts, I find that hard to believe.. :)

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Permalink Reply by ibc on November 18, 2009 at 9:39am

One last bit, that sums this issue up better than I could:

These guys took down a plane with box cutters. They used crude weapons to attack a far more sophisticated and effective fighting force. The most fearsome of them was captured at home, in his pajamas. It's not like we're putting Magneto on trial and need to keep him away from metal filings.
It's one thing to be afraid of terrorism. But there's no real reason to be afraid of terrorists, and as Daphne Eviatar argues, there's good reason not to look like you're afraid of terrorists:

The contrast of seeing these ordinary-looking men on trial in an orderly U.S. courtroom — where they’re accorded the right to a lawyer, the right to speak in their own defense and the right to call witnesses — could go a long way toward publicly revealing the absurdity of their cause, as well as the justice that a fair and functioning legal system can provide.

Trying these guys publicly, as well as holding them in normal prisons like common criminals, is good public relations. Being a terrorist is a more appealing prospect if the world's sole superpower appears to cower before your might than it is if you end up trapped in the American legal system, forced to submit to endless cross-examination and consultation with attorneys and other bureaucratic humiliations. Lots of people want to be super villains. But who wants to be a henchman? Being held on a fortified military island and tortured by a country that can't seem to get you to talk is a much more glorious finish than a long and dull trial that ends with you serving time in central New Jersey.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/11/khalid_sheikh_m...

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Permalink Reply by John Antonelli on November 18, 2009 at 9:59am

This shows you naivete ibc.

1. We cannot hold terrorist with other prisoners for fear of them radicalizing other prisoners or even worse because the other inmates will kill them for status (not that I will lose any sleep over that).

2. Terrorist make their trial a circus and a platform for their radical views and as a PR tool to get more radicals.

3. Once they are sentenced more acts of terror will follow in a bid to release them and worse as a mermorial to them after the many mechinations nmecessary for the righteous and actual sentence to be carried out.

ibc, there are a lot of good things in the WAPO, but there are a lot of pointy headed idiots who write there also. The key is to understand the difference.

ibc said:

One last bit, that sums this issue up better than I could:

These guys took down a plane with box cutters. They used crude weapons to attack a far more sophisticated and effective fighting force. The most fearsome of them was captured at home, in his pajamas. It's not like we're putting Magneto on trial and need to keep him away from metal filings.
It's one thing to be afraid of terrorism. But there's no real reason to be afraid of terrorists, and as Daphne Eviatar argues, there's good reason not to look like you're afraid of terrorists:

The contrast of seeing these ordinary-looking men on trial in an orderly U.S. courtroom — where they’re accorded the right to a lawyer, the right to speak in their own defense and the right to call witnesses — could go a long way toward publicly revealing the absurdity of their cause, as well as the justice that a fair and functioning legal system can provide.

Trying these guys publicly, as well as holding them in normal prisons like common criminals, is good public relations. Being a terrorist is a more appealing prospect if the world's sole superpower appears to cower before your might than it is if you end up trapped in the American legal system, forced to submit to endless cross-examination and consultation with attorneys and other bureaucratic humiliations. Lots of people want to be super villains. But who wants to be a henchman? Being held on a fortified military island and tortured by a country that can't seem to get you to talk is a much more glorious finish than a long and dull trial that ends with you serving time in central New Jersey.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/11/khalid_sheikh_m...

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Permalink Reply by ibc on November 18, 2009 at 11:45am

John Antonelli said:

This shows you naivete ibc.

1. We cannot hold terrorist with other prisoners for fear of them radicalizing other prisoners or even worse because the other inmates will kill them for status (not that I will lose any sleep over that).

2. Terrorist make their trial a circus and a platform for their radical views and as a PR tool to get more radicals.

3. Once they are sentenced more acts of terror will follow in a bid to release them and worse as a mermorial to them after the many mechinations nmecessary for the righteous and actual sentence to be carried out.

ibc, there are a lot of good things in the WAPO, but there are a lot of pointy headed idiots who write there also. The key is to understand the difference.

I think your fear is clouding your judgement. One more:

It will be a civic lesson to America and the world. It will show the evil of terrorism and the futility and danger of torture. It will be a way in which Cheney's torture regime can be revealed in all its grotesque excess at the same time as KSM's vile religious extremism is exposed for its murderous nihilism. That all this will take place in New York - close to where the mass murder took place - is a particularly smart touch. This will, then, be a Nuremberg-style event - because it will pit Qaeda barbarism against the cooling, calm and resolute nature of real Western justice in the clear light of history. But it does one more critical thing. It reveals a new confidence in ourselves and the Western way of life.
When you listen to the Fox News right speak about this, they reveal amazing levels of fear. They have been truly spooked by these men with long beards and chilling eyes. They are so scared of them they are willing to drop any and all legal principles that the West has historically used with respect to mass murderers. Their fear brought them to institute torture, and to engage in mass brutality against prisoners of war in every theater of combat in a manner that will tragically taint the honor of the US military for a very long time. It led them to establish Gitmo, to create for the world a reverse symbol of the Statue of Liberty, and imprint it on the minds and in the consciences of an entire generation of human beings, whose view of America will never be the same.

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Permalink Reply by John Antonelli on November 18, 2009 at 11:49am

I have no fear of KSM, I have a lot of fear of the guy we don't know about with the nuke. A trial will do nothing to stop that. Moreover there will be no Nuremberg moment here as these people, at least in their own mind are working for God and for God's reward. Bottmline comparing AQ to the is like comparing apples to oranges.
ibc said:

John Antonelli said:

This shows you naivete ibc.

1. We cannot hold terrorist with other prisoners for fear of them radicalizing other prisoners or even worse because the other inmates will kill them for status (not that I will lose any sleep over that).

2. Terrorist make their trial a circus and a platform for their radical views and as a PR tool to get more radicals.

3. Once they are sentenced more acts of terror will follow in a bid to release them and worse as a mermorial to them after the many mechinations nmecessary for the righteous and actual sentence to be carried out.

ibc, there are a lot of good things in the WAPO, but there are a lot of pointy headed idiots who write there also. The key is to understand the difference.

I think your fear is clouding your judgement. One more:

It will be a civic lesson to America and the world. It will show the evil of terrorism and the futility and danger of torture. It will be a way in which Cheney's torture regime can be revealed in all its grotesque excess at the same time as KSM's vile religious extremism is exposed for its murderous nihilism. That all this will take place in New York - close to where the mass murder took place - is a particularly smart touch. This will, then, be a Nuremberg-style event - because it will pit Qaeda barbarism against the cooling, calm and resolute nature of real Western justice in the clear light of history. But it does one more critical thing. It reveals a new confidence in ourselves and the Western way of life.
When you listen to the Fox News right speak about this, they reveal amazing levels of fear. They have been truly spooked by these men with long beards and chilling eyes. They are so scared of them they are willing to drop any and all legal principles that the West has historically used with respect to mass murderers. Their fear brought them to institute torture, and to engage in mass brutality against prisoners of war in every theater of combat in a manner that will tragically taint the honor of the US military for a very long time. It led them to establish Gitmo, to create for the world a reverse symbol of the Statue of Liberty, and imprint it on the minds and in the consciences of an entire generation of human beings, whose view of America will never be the same.

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